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The Hingsen Combination: A Challenge! (16)

May 06, 2011

Is a decathlete a real athlete? Commentators, world records, decathlon and prejudice!
Part II   The Hingsen Combination: A challenge!

Yes, in terms of body constitution the examples where extreme[1]. But the point is that decathletes do both and with more than reasonable results, so give decathletes or the women and men that take part in multi events in general, the recognition they deserve. True! Shot putters, other throwers and long distance runners are not to be underestimated. Okay, you have them in different statures but they are real very hard working athletes just as participants of combined events are. Approaching decathlon events from the point of view of three groups of actions – throwing jumping and running - the throwing has not a decathlete as world record holder (as distinct from running and jumping). The best personal records (total) is from Mac Wilkins. To compare the world record with old* and new javelin with that of “Multiple Mac”:

Name

 

Pb total

SP

DT

JT

 

Mac

Wilkins

3501

21,06

70,98

78,44

 

Raimo

Pihl

2857

16,04

47,95

88,52

*

Mike

Smith

2816

18,03

52,90

71,22

 

But, how about a challenge for those underestimating decathlon? The records in decathlon are so easy that real athletes can (with no trouble) do better in more than one discipline they say? If decathlon records  are so easy to improve, how about trying to improve the world record of only one combination in the multi event! We talk about one combination of only two events and you got two days to try! Let us call it “The Hingsen Combination”! The world record holder is Jürgen Hingsen and he holds the record  since 1982.

Performances by
Jürgen Hingsen

Points

Points

 

Points "HC"

Shot Put

 

1500 m

SP

1500 m

Year

Decathlon

1696

16,00

4

15,13

851

845

1982

8741

1690

16,42

4

19,75

877

813

1984

8832

1681

16,46

4

21,61

880

801

1986

8730

1661

15,94

4

19,74

848

813

1983

8825

1658

15,06

4

12,29

793

865

1979

8218

1657

16,57

4

25,94

886

771

1986

8485

1637

15,87

4

22,6

843

794

1984

8695

1635

15,06

4

15,56

793

842

1980

8409

1633

15,95

4

23,87

848

785

1982

8541

1631

15,66

4

21,59

830

801

1983

8599

HC: Hingsen Combination means the sum or total score  from Shot Put and 1500 m in two days

In two days he collected 1696 points for the combination shot Put and running the 1500 meters doing respectively 16.00 meters and 4 minutes 15.13sec. (Meanwhile the man did a decathlon world record of 8741 points!) To improve this Hingsen combination world record by one point, here’s an idée of the performance you need if you equal  the world record in one event: If you throw 23 meters 12 (WR) in the shot put (trying only three times, not six) you need a time of 5 minutes 29.56 seconds or better to make a score of 1697 points (1295+402). For the long distance runner we have the following submissions: 3 minutes 26.00 seconds (WR) combined with a shot put of 9 meters 89 (1218+479). In our opinion if the record will be broken it will take a decathlete to improve this record and I think no elite shot putter nor specialist 1500 meters runner will ever be able to break the record (let alone another specialist). To make it to the top ten will not be easy either. Here’s a list with best performances for the combination of the most dissimilar or various events in decathlon (+ 8000 points).[2]

Position/Name

Points comb.

Shot Put

1500 m

Year

Decathlon

1 Jürgen Hingsen

1696

16.00

4  15.13

1982

8741

2 Christian Schenk

1681

15.59

4  13.77

1990

8433

3 Valter Külvet

1678

15.78

4  15.93

1988

8506

4 Bruce Jenner

1674

15.35

4  12.61

1976

8634

5 Yuri Kutsenko

1673

15.22

4  11.61

1981

8281

6 Antonio Penalver

1670

17.32

4  31.21

1991

8306

7 Grigori Degtyaryov

1668

16.14

4  20.49

1984

8617

8 Aleksandr Apaichev

1666

15.91

4  18.78

1984

8592

9 Steffen Grummt

1665

16.81

4  27.04

1984

8172

10 Norbert Demmel

1665

16.60

4  25.07

1989

8059

[1] For women Decathlon possible extremes in difference of body constitution (to compare with women decathletes) are Valerie Vili – Adams (NZL) length/weight: 1m96/120 kg (21m07 in the shot put) and Elvan Abeylegesse (TUR) 1m59/40 kg (3m 58.28sec in 1500)

[2] Russel Hodge has a life time best total (WR) of 1872 points (SP: 18.56/1500: 4 12.7).

Next time: Part III Comparing records – more remarks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris Vlamynck & Janek Salmistu for Decathlon 2000

Comments (16)

Dale Harder wrote on May 07, 2011
I like this idea. How about a whole bunch of two event two-day records. How about the SP-100m? or SP-HJ?
I also would like to see three event records. How about the SP-HJ-100? Or maybe the best measure of an athlete in only three events where you need one throw, one race and one jump/vault? I like the SP-PV-100 for sheer athleticism. Maybe we could start a series of meets with just 3 events: Another very interesting combo would be JT-HJ-400.
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Yoram Aharoni wrote on May 07, 2011
Not in the same day, but werner Gunthor had a rare combination of 22.75 meters shot put and 2.00 m high jump. It is not a rumor! It appears in official books like "Athletics 1992" by ATFS. i gives him 2075 points (1272+803).
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Yoram Aharoni wrote on May 07, 2011
Dietmar Mögenburg took part at Hapoel Games in Israel in 1983 and had a combination of 2.21 High jump (4.5.1983) and 13.29 shot put (5.5.1983). We all know that his personal bests at HJ was 2.39 indoor and 2.36 outdoor. I don't know his PB at shot put. I remember that the germans talked that one day he might try the decathlon and beat Daley Thompson.
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Yoram Aharoni wrote on May 07, 2011
Former decathlete Alex Averbukh better known as a pole vaulter had personal bests of 10.64 (100 - 942 points), 5.93 (PV - 1207 points) and 15.12 (SP - 797 points) for a some of 2946 points. Great decathletes like Brian Clay or Erki Nool have personal bests that sumed up for over 3000 points with 100 - Long Jump and one of the throwing events.
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Dimitry Yakoushkin wrote on May 08, 2011
No way an elite shot putter runs 5mintes-anything for a 1500, but I could see an elite 1500 runner throwing 10m in the shot put with a little training. I think maybe the shot put/high jump or long jump combination is more indicative of a decathlete's relative abilities versus other athletes. However, this analysis does an amazing job of establishing a quantified way of comparing single event elite athletes against decs, and the decathletes match up very well against all the elites, especially since they have to do it on the same competition. Awesome.
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William Hazen wrote on May 08, 2011
Dimitry I think you do not give elite shot putters the credit they deserve in regards to how athletic they really are. These guys are not just heavy weight lifters who happen to be able to throw a 16lb ball over 70ft. Some of them indeed couldn't run a 1500 in under 6 minutes but I think you would be surprised at the kind of shape most of them might demonstrate in a 1500m. One man I think who could do the proposed WR throw with a sub 5:30 mile is Randy Barnes.
On the flipside I do not see a 1500m specialist throwing 10m. My teamate and fellow decathlete hurdles sub 15 seconds, highjumps 6'4, does a 4:40 1500, etc. and can't get the shot past 7.5 meters. If a specialist hurdler and high jumper (in his case) can't get a shot over 7.5 with that level of explosive output I doubt a specialist 1500m is going to get it past 5m.
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B.J. Parish wrote on May 10, 2011
william i think you are right a shot putter such as gunthor timmermann barnes and i think more than that could run a 5 minute 1500. however a 1500 runner there is no way they could throw ten even with training they would have to put on weight to throw farther.

however this is just my opinion, most elite 1500 runners do not even weigh hardly 130 pounds so i think it would be very hard for 10 meters
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keessluys wrote on May 11, 2011
I like stories like this, but: why bother so much about dumb journalists? For us - visitors of Decathlon2000 - it is very clear that decathletes are real athletes. And sometimes more than that.
In my book Snel, Hoog, Ver - Geschiedenis van de tienkamp (2008) I gave an example of the outstanding qualities of one of them: Dan O'Brien.
He was a real 'one man track team'. I compared his best results ever (excl. 1500 meter) with the seasons bests of Dutch athletes in the year of O'Briens olympic triumph, 1996.
On the Dutch 1996-list he would stand
2. in the 100 meters: 10.32
1. in the 400 meters: 46.53
1. in the 100 hurdles: 13.67
1. in the longjump: 8.11
1. in the high jump: 2.20
4. in the pole vault: 5.25
4. in the shot put: 16.69
4. in the discus: 55.07
6. in the javelin: 66.90

Kees Sluys
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keessluys wrote on May 11, 2011
Notable: we don't see modern decathletes represented in the Hingsen Combination Top 10.
Penalver was the last one. Twenty years ago!
Does it tell something about the development of the decathlon cq decathletes?

A modern decathlete who almost entered the Top 10 is Maurice Smith.
Shot Put: 17.32
1500: 4.33.52
Total points: 1655

He did so during the World Championships in Osaka 2007 where he finished second with 8644 points.
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B.J. Parish wrote on May 12, 2011
but in the top 10 list all of the guys under a 4:30 1500 did not throw over 17. I know its the points that matter, just saying!
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Dale Harder wrote on May 26, 2011
Great info! I love it!
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Daniel Urien wrote on May 26, 2011
Don't forget the indoor marks (even 1000 is easier than 1500)

Kratshmer 17.13 2.40.07 = 1794 (6141-1986)
Drodzov (a modern decathlete) : 17.17 2.45.35 = 1739 (6141-2010)
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eierluke wrote on July 09, 2011
Top speed and endurance would be a modification of the "Hingsen Combination". But since Curtis Beach recently ran the 100m in 10,78 (910 pts) and finished (this 3 day event) with 1500m 3:59,13 (960 pts) I asked myself, who could do better in a combination of top speed and endurance?
Even an addition of the pb of legendary Bill Toomey 10,41 (996) and 4:12,7 (862) = 1858 wouldn't match.
Usain Bolt would have to add 4:42 min (668 pts) to his 9,58 s (1202) WR to equalize 1870 pts.
Hicham El Guerrouj would make 1218 pts with his 1500 m WR of 3:26,00 min and would have to run the 100 m in under 12 s (11,99 s = 653 s).
Does anybody know an athlete, who might reach the mark of Curtis Beach?
(I don't know a 100m time of Sebastian Coe, who'd be my favorite since he ran 3:29,77 (1188) and would just have to add 11,84 s (683 pts)
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John Rapacciuolo wrote on July 12, 2011
Chris Solinsky, at 160+ pounds, might have an easier time throwing the shot than Hicham El Guerrouj, while giving away less than 10 seconds in the 1500m.
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Illimar Pilk wrote on Sep 01, 2011
Very good info
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eierluke wrote on Jan 02, 2012
Raimo Pihl shot put: 16,29m Raimo Pihl, 49 Stockholm 1978-06-20
source: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-92028/men-shot.htm
(instead of the already known 16,04m)

Where are the 47.95 m discus from, in the pdf raw data on this side he is with 47.42m ?
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