Decathlon World Junior all-time list - 7.26kg;107cm;2.0kg;800g (14)

Good for you for listing this. The U.S. all-time lists are ALL screwed up. From 20 years LEGIONS of junior athletes, myself included, had to use the full sized collegite 16 pound shot, Discus and high hurdles and our scores were from 7,200 plus to 7,650. When they changed to the 12 pound and high school hurdles and discus and javelin, the USATF and AAU simply threw out 30 years of records. Point I am making, a 7,650 score by keith Robinson, converted to high school implements is a score of around 8,100 to 8,200 with high school implements. When I won the junior U.S. title with 7,210 with college implements, that converts to 7,800. Same with Craig Brighams 7,500, it converts to 8,100. There were literally, 30-45 junior american dectathletes, Jeff Swanger, Joe Sneider, Rob Muzzio, and many, many others who performed close to 8000 point total if you convert the fact they ALL used college implements and hurdles. This means when people when goo-goo over the kid from New Mexico going 7,400 with high school implements his score, if converted down using college implements, his score comparitively is ONLY 6,800 points...a total that would not place in most college meets. In fact, his 104 foot toss with a high school discus only converts to 80 feet with a comparable collegiate 2 kilo discus...a terrible mark. His 6.800 score with a colligiate implement conversion puts him below the 7,000 point mark that Frank Zarnowski historically required to list a a "REAL" decathlete. When he hit 7,400 with high school implements and hurdles they INCORRECTLY handed him the Junior American Record, when infact, he might only have the 35th-49th top performance all-time by a junior. The same thing happened with the AAU record, they gave it to the kid from Tennessee two years ago with 7,350 points with HIGH SCHOOL implements and hurdles. My freshman year in college, myself and Jeff Swanger, runner up at the USA junior naitonals that Summer were the only freshman to qualify for the NCAA meet. Jeff beat me at that meet and scored 7,350 points with COLLEGE IMPLEMENTS., a score that is IN FACT, 7,950 points if converted to using high school implements. In your above examples, Thorston Voss' 8,397 with the heavier implements and hurdles is over 9000 points with lighter high school implements, early 2000 points more than when the New Mexico scored 7,400. Our sport is one measured in milli-seconds and millimeters, and the U.S. totallly bastardized 20 years of some of the best U.S. American scores. The New Mexico score, the kid from Tennessee (Davies) Donavan Kilmartin and others are listed as the record holders. Not only are they NOT, I doubt, in reality, they make the top 40 list. Get with it USATF and AAU. I don't want to hear that the times changed and the conversion is too hard. It is simple. The shot is converted by 8 ft. The discus conversion is 25. The javelin conversion (accounting for 1985 handle moves and weights) 12-13 feet. If the USATF and AAU can't take the time to set the records straight, then need whomever is in charge of record keeping to be fired and be replaced by a competent statistition. Would changing to a lighter implement in ANY of the individual throwiing events (meaning, the shot, discus, javelin, hammer in non decathlon) on the junior level be tolerated? No. They would not dream of taking an junior discus record with a 2k discus of say, 225 feet and allowing a new record with a 1.5K discus of 250 and name the lighter implement performance the new record holder. It would never happen. Is should not have happened in the junior decathlon and these better performances need to be reinstated. Frank Zarnowski has told me his is working on rectifying it. If you want to get the REAL U.S. junior all-time list, write Zarnowski at Mt. Saint Mary's college in Maryland, U.S.A. before he retires. Why should I care? Because I love track & field first and formost for it's statistcal accuracy. Crowning 6,800 point decathletes as American Record holders is wrong. USATF and AAU need to set the record straight. If they don't think it matters, I contend that all U.S. junior records in the open throwing events (non decathlon) using the collegiate 16 pound shot, the 2k Discus and 800 gram javelin be thrown out and also replaced with lighter implement marks. The throwing community would tolerate it. Why should the decathlon community expect anything less?

gary, you make a really good point. I wasn't aware of all of those high-caliber performances before the conversions took place. And if what you're saying is true, then the New Mexico kid (Beach) doesn't deserve the national record. However, I think you're not giving him near the credit he deserves. He scored 7909 with the high school implements and 7466 with the collegiate implements while in high school. That's right up there with some of the best we've had in America as far as juniors are concerned

i think they allowed beach to use both implements in the same meet. so he would take 3 throws with lighter then 3 more with heavier. this is how i understand it to have happened.

if this is how it happened i do not agree at all he needs to do a full decathlon with lighter implements then a full decathlon with heavier implements

Yes, you're correct. He did 13 events that day, I dont think it came into play in shot and discus as much, but Im pretty sure he walked back from the 110 hurdles at 39" to do them at 42" with virtually no break. With shot and disc, he's not scoring a lot anyway, but hurdles is one of his more important events and I honestly don't see how he was able to run 14.7 after that. I wish he wouldve picked just one decathlon to do that meet so we could see what he was capable of.

thanks for the update. I really am not sure on the both implements. And YES, his 7499 if done with college implements, he is very, very good. But again, it is not 7650. Also, when we ran you could NOT be 19 when you ran the junior meets. They also allow this. What difference does a year make? I did 7,210 at 18, 7,440 at 19. I had a much bigger beef with this until the 7499 was scored, especially with Ben Davies. When Davies went 7,350 in Ypsilanti, and heard all day how this lighter implement and short hurdles was a record. It is in fact, about 6,600 with college implements. When I made the U.S.A. vs. U.S.S.R. team at 7,139 at least four athletes sat home with scores of 6,600 to 7,000 points. Not a word of them being the next Daley Thompson. (nor did I or Swanger deserve such a title) I was not a good thrower, ran a 4:14 1500, and in the end did not make the Olympic team. When I see the New Mexico kid running 1:47 in the 800 I say turn him into what he really is, a 800 meter runner who would probably run 1:42. Running a 3:55 1500 and throwing the shot 38 feet is not going to make for a great decathlon score. This is not about bashing the athlete, but about good record keeping. I say convert all the scores from 72 to 1990 or whenever the lighter implments went into effect.

I have to say my guess of him not making it to the NCAA meet in the decathlon this year was wrong, but I was right about one thing. He took third in his conference meet, no...he did not burn up the field. Yes, he had a great freshman mark, but it is more about what his real age is. Is he 20 now? That is sophomore mark, not a freshman mark. I am saying I would love to see him break the American record in the 800 where he belongs. No, he is not the next Bruce Jenner or Daley Thompson., Ashton Eaton is.

i think yordany garcia did that performance att 6kg, 100cm, 1.75kg, 700g

Hi Roland.

Yordani Garcia performed 8257 with senior implements during the 2007 World decathlon Championship Osaka-JPN (8th)

Now Kévin Mayer (FRA) is 8th all time junior (with senior implements) with 7992 points made at the TNT Kladno meet.

19 Kevin Lazas USA 7802
10,96 - 7.39 - 13.15 - 1.96 - 50,58
15,29 - 40.46 - 4.90 - 58.78 - 4.36,34
Des Moines IA 2011
(Ten events were not completed according to IAAF rules on "two consecutive days").

Henry, I since found out Beach's 7499 was not with college implements, but with the IAAF weights. Meaning, he threw the 12 pound shot first, then picked up the IAAF shot (which was only 13.75 pounds, NOT 16 pounds) Same with the IAAF discus, not as heavy as the 2 kilo college discus. Something else I just found out, Beach's age. Do you realize that he was a red shirted freshman this year and he turns 21 in July? I was 21 my senior year in college, as would be most other former junior champions. Think about that, he will turn 25 less than a month after graduating college. The fact is he was a very old 18 in high school, 18 years and 11 plus months actually. In an event where maturity is everything consider this. Much is made that as a freshman at Duke he just too second at the NCAA meet. Fact is, he is the age of most seniors in college. He is doing much better than I thought he would, but I have to tell you, getting stomped by 1000 points by Ashton Eaton and having three other athletes at the USATF drop out who would have easily beat him proves my point. At age 21, he is going to have a hell of a time competting with these super sprinter, long jumper throwers of today. And he is NOT a true freshman and was not a true junior athlete who broke the REAL junior records that were set with college implements. Compare apples to apples. Beach was a VERY old senior in high school, essentially 19, and got to use high school implements and hurdles, if he had not, his scores would have been put in their proper perspective. Imagine the same thing happening in the shot put with Michaeld Carter when the threw the 12 pound shot 81 feet. People would have gone nuts to say that this high school kid is threw further than Brian Oldfield. No. Though Carter was very good, as was beach, the track world did not proclam Michael as the new American record hold by simply throwing out the 16 pound shot performers. But the decathlon world did exactly this with beach. Giving him a pass in the high hurdles, discus and shot with dinky implements and then calling him the new record holder. Lordy. Curtis really has improved this year, more than I had ever guess. However, the kid is 21 now, the age of most seniors, not freshmen in college. Let's keep grounded in reality folks, which is the REAL super star is Ashton Eaton...a full, 1200 points higher than beach at the USATF meet in 2011, just as I have said he would be all along. YEST curtis, you are a great decathlete., but want to schock the world, do it in the 800 or even the 1500. The new decathlon is now determined by one thing, the fastest sprinter who can long jump, throw and hurdle. All things equal which they are on the national and international level. (meaning all good decathletes CAN do ALL the events well) the fast Ashton Eaton types with make the u.s. decathlon team. Not scrawny Beach types. I know, I was one of the scrawny ones in the 80s...I had an outside chance then. Today? NO WAY.

Gary,
I normally do not respond to Internet postings, but since you have posted under your own name (which I admire) and have a legitimate point to make, I felt that is was necessary that you have accurate and FACTUAL information. I do not want to see misinformation spread on this particular topic.

First of all, I know that High School Decathlon records can be confusing since three different sets of implements are used. So here goes; as of 2005 Track and Field News, the statisticians of the sport listed the high school decathlon records holders as follows:
Craig Brigham (7359-’72), International Implements (Shot – 7.26kg, Disc – 2kg, Jav – 800g OLD, 42” Hurdles).
Donovan Kilmartin (7440-’02) Junior Implements (Shot – 6kg, Disc – 1.75kg, Jav – 800g, 42” Hurdles).
Ryan Theriault (7417-’93) HS Implements (Shot – 5.44kg, Disc – 1.62kg, Jav – 800g, 39” Hurdles).
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lists/all_time/pr...

In 2009, Curtis had the following personal bests using each of the three sets of implements:

International (College) Implements: 7466 (Albuquerque, NM – AGE:18) 6/09
Junior Implements: 7599 (Eugene, OR - AGE:18) 6/09
High School Implements: 7909 (Arcadia, CA – AGE:18) 4/09

As you can see, Curtis surpassed the previous records using INTERNATIONAL (COLLEGE) Implements, Junior Implements, and HS Implements.

This year these marks were again surpassed by Gunner Nixon, a humble and very talented athlete:

International (College) Implements: 7524 (Arcadia, CA – AGE:18) 4/09
Junior Implements: 7748 (Eugene, OR - AGE:18) 6/09
High School Implements: 8035 (Albuquerque, NM – AGE:18) 4/09

The American Junior record holder using International Implements, until this year, was Keith Robinson of BYU (7638), now currently Kevin Lazas (Arkansas) (7802). Curtis was NEVER the American Junior record holder using International Implements.

Now to your point; if you feel that decathletes of your era have been slighted by the changes in implements and you believe that there have been legitimate High School decathlon scores with International Implements higher than Craig Brigham’s 7359, Curtis’s 7466, and now Gunnar Nixon’s 7524 show the evidence (marks, dates, locations, etc.) and take it to the keepers of the records like Track and Field News or Jack Shepard. I highly doubt that they will accept conversions between the different set of implements; so good luck with that! But do not diminish and downplay the efforts and accomplishments of the athletes who worked hard for their marks.

Another point of clarification in your posting, we started Curtis in first grade as a young six year old rather than a young five year old, he graduated from high school at the age of 18, just like many of his classmates. He is on track to graduate from Duke University with the Class of 2013 as a 22 year old Senior just like many of his classmates. He was listed as a freshman this year in the NCAA Outdoor season due to an application for a medical redshirt.

Because you seem to have to have an interest in his decathlon career here are some other FACTS:

Curtis is currently 20 years old, and will continue to be until July 22 when he will turn 21. He has competed in a total of 5 decathlons using International (College) Implements with the following scores:

2009 – 7466 Great Southwest Classic – Age 18
2010 – DNF (Injury) ACC Outdoor Championships – Age 19
2011 – 7543 ACC Outdoor Championships – Age 20
2011 – 8084 NCAA Division I Championships – Age 20
2011 – 7573 USA Outdoor Championships – Age 20

I am not sure how old you were when you broke the 8000 point barrier, but I think that doing so at age 20 puts him in good company, and does not warrant a call for him to give up the event.

It has always been my experience that the decathlon was an event where all of the athletes supported each other and applauded their brethren’s accomplishments. Very rarely, if ever have I seen a former decathlete diminish one of their fellow decathlete's accomplishments, much less, encourage them to give up the event because he was out pointed by more than a 1000 points.

Curtis is very passionate about the decathlon and will continue to strive for improvement. He may or may not achieve “elite” status, but it is HIS choice not anyone else.

As a coach, I would hope you do not take the same approach of discouragement with your athletes or your son, who I understand is a decathlete as well. I hope to see him compete in the NCAA Championships in the near future, and I can assure you that Curtis and I will be encouraging his efforts.

David Beach
“A very proud father”

David Beach,

Thank you so much for responding, I was in the process of trying to come up with something to respond to the above! I am very proud to have been a decathlete and competed in the 2008 NCAA meet and watch Ashton Eaton score his first 8k. I have been following the decathlon very closely for about 8 years now and I have noticed 2 things about decathletes! everyone is always cheering each other on and the brotherhood is very strong(like you mentioned above). The second being that decathletes come in all different shapes and sizes and different strengths.

I believe Curtis has some amazing strengths. He has already ran 10.7 int he 100 and long jumped over 7.40. Every time he is interviewed he sounds very humble and sticks to the fact that he is training speed and power and it shows! i think he will make a great decathlete and has already done so and for someone to say he should give up the event is insane! I am very privileged to watch a decathlete like Curtis develop. I think he only makes the decathlon a better event and the other decathletes around him better!

One more thing to Gary he is not a super speed athlete like Trey and Ashton and Clay but 10.75 is not slow at all and in fact that is very fast and he is not done and will run much faster.
Another thing is that when the rest of his events do catch up everyone will be in trouble because of his 1500 he can make up some huge points in that.


One other thing I would like to point out is what a great competitor he is! I watched curtis pull through and get a huge discus throw when he needed one and in some pretty sloppy conditions i might add!

oh yeah one more thing Gary, you can hardly compare the US champs for beach since he was on a 2 week break and ashton was really aiming for US champs. Also if you tell beach to give up cause he was beat by over 1000 points then you should tell all but 2 guys in that field to give up and why not Harlan why your at it Ashton beat him by 700. I am very upset about some of the comments made. It seems like you personally have something against him.

Gary,
I agree with David and BJ. Trust me, I'm well aware that he wasn't a true freshman this season, but there's no denying the facts. He's 20 and has gone 8000. You're right, he's not the traditional decathlete. He's not freakishly fast in the sprints or going 8 meters in the long jump like Eaton (but who is?), and he has a lot of work to do in the throws, but I think that just gives him the opportunity to be different. Everyone keeps saying he'd be better off switching to middle distance, but I don't think so. Why should he? He's still improving, and that's what it's all about. According to his personal bests on tfrrs, he has 7 events that are 850 and over. So he has 3 weak events, which is really just one weakness: throwing. He's only 20 (almost 21) and has one weak event type; I can't see how you could tell a decathlete in his position to switch. He's getting better, and everything I've seen and heard about him tells me he will continue to, and hopefully he'll become a better thrower. But that aside, the fact is he's young, improving, and already at the top of the NCAA. I've always been taught to never count the 1500 runners out in the dec, because they can always make up huge ground at the end.

So I'm just saying, don't count him out.